tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post1165610655653535510..comments2023-11-05T03:41:06.107-05:00Comments on <b>FAITH, HOPE, LOVE ... and REASON</b>: David Fitch "Christian Nation"Joseph Holbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-23130495742415335132013-12-21T22:31:58.030-05:002013-12-21T22:31:58.030-05:00Just catching up on my reading and saw this. Reall...Just catching up on my reading and saw this. Really thought-provoking, guys. Thanks!<br /><br />"Can an American be a Christian?"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11660964184560606566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-2620964643209073622013-12-13T08:23:47.134-05:002013-12-13T08:23:47.134-05:00Yes, we had wandered off from the original focus o...Yes, we had wandered off from the original focus of the post. I was responding to your earlier comment about the differing perspectives.<br /><br />The issue of identifying what is essential to the faith and what is not has caused problems for centuries.Dan and Patti Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14536270277796829582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-84436897022077726962013-12-12T12:51:50.978-05:002013-12-12T12:51:50.978-05:00i think there are more basic things at stake than ...i think there are more basic things at stake than the tenor of this argument, which is why i've refrained from entering. i think a general question would be, given that justice is an aspect of righteousness, and that the self-assured heart is far from god's--can an american be a christian? <br />or is the eye of the needle just too small?<br /><br />what's at stake in our fucked up Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03253890419755380271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-80723295008142761032013-12-12T12:00:49.078-05:002013-12-12T12:00:49.078-05:00The confession that "Jesus is Lord!" mus...The confession that "Jesus is Lord!" must address both abortion and poverty, both marriage and militarism, both sexuality and hunger. Jim Wallis of Sojourners has been attempting to do this, but still sounds (to me) like a typical progressive offering some lip service to conservative concerns. But I think he's trying for a more comprehensive posture, one that seeks to break out ofBrian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-26126613223292435972013-12-12T09:21:17.408-05:002013-12-12T09:21:17.408-05:00yes, I understand your point and agree with it Dan...yes, I understand your point and agree with it Dan (and with John). We could analyze both parties positions to see which platform we identify with more. But I think what Fitch is getting at is something more specific than whether Republicans have a more suitable and scripture set of positions than the other party. <br />His concern is that conservatives evangelicals have developed a "Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-48593879179458657202013-12-11T11:34:07.794-05:002013-12-11T11:34:07.794-05:00Issues of social justice and equality are perceive...Issues of social justice and equality are perceived differently by different people, depending on their world view, upbringing, experience, etc. A watershed issue for many Christians, including Catholics, is abortion, as John Meadows has mentioned. If you see an embryo as a living person, then justice and equality for that person means not aborting him or her.<br /><br />The trend in our Dan and Patti Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14536270277796829582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-6023810469535217452013-12-10T20:24:16.733-05:002013-12-10T20:24:16.733-05:00What about the abortion issue? That's where I...What about the abortion issue? That's where I hang up regarding the Christian left's or progressives' indentification with the Dems. Another irony is that statistics show that dems give a much smaller % of their income to charity than do repubsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16586694053743565336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-20093977311259042532013-12-10T09:02:52.612-05:002013-12-10T09:02:52.612-05:00really? You think that U.S. politics is tending to...really? You think that U.S. politics is tending toward the middle? That has not been my observation. It seems that the two parties are moving apart toward the extremes ... I will need to read Reno. I have enjoyed some of his past articles, but this one sounds like it has some ethical bias in it. Of course, if one's moral and ethical system is built around tradition, family values and sexual Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-31963048483090026072013-12-09T19:38:22.674-05:002013-12-09T19:38:22.674-05:00I'm a reader of First Things magazine (RJ Neuh...I'm a reader of First Things magazine (RJ Neuhaus, founder; a generally conservative Catholic perspective, but amazing what turns up in their pages). Their editor, RR Reno, contends that, despite all the flaws and shortcomings of hitching its wagon to the Republican star, believing Christians (Catholics) don't have much choice in the current political landscape. To support the Dems is Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-71031883163059374662013-12-09T16:36:46.416-05:002013-12-09T16:36:46.416-05:00I have not read Fitch nor this chapter, but my con...I have not read Fitch nor this chapter, but my concern for some time has been (and I echo the comment about Bush's ideology of democracy being messianic) that the U.S. generally assumes that our form of democracy and capitalism is a wonderful panacea that we generously impose, uh, offer the rest to the world. It makes me wonder if we are even looking at the state of affairs of our own Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03587440232146555715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-17580592463383507492013-12-09T11:28:46.954-05:002013-12-09T11:28:46.954-05:00The history at the beginning of the chapter is int...The history at the beginning of the chapter is interesting. And I heartily agree with some of his statements about George W. Bush's presidency. Though I supported Bush, I was very concerned about the themes of his second inaugural address, where he spoke of the US bringing the light of democracy to the world. To me, that is a faulty mission -- wrongly conceived and doomed to failure. And Dan and Patti Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14536270277796829582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-21110138864816209082013-12-08T21:12:44.220-05:002013-12-08T21:12:44.220-05:00I just want to clarify from his intro chapter, tha...I just want to clarify from his intro chapter, that he is careful to affirm that his desire is not to critique the church. His intention is to analyze a specific political ideology that has been adopted by a portion of the church that he himself is part of, namely, the Evangelical church. He feels that by tying its wagon to a political ideology, Evangelicals will fall or rise with that ideology, Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-52375779431589182122013-12-08T19:31:55.708-05:002013-12-08T19:31:55.708-05:00Yup. I know that my comments above were based jus...Yup. I know that my comments above were based just on reading one chapter of Fitch's work -- and a pretty quick read, at that. I've noticed that he's written a more recent book called "Prodigal Christianity" that seems to focus more on proposing a way forward, rather than critiquing the church. Sounds interesting...Dan and Patti Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14536270277796829582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-13734319836778313872013-12-08T16:39:19.825-05:002013-12-08T16:39:19.825-05:00I haven't read the book, so am responding to t...I haven't read the book, so am responding to the general conversation, and to Dan and Joe's comments above. One can't sell too many books by proposing a balanced, careful, well-modulated, this-is-really-complex kind of approach. Something controversial and inflammatory is always better. This is harsher than I intend (esp. since I haven't read Fitch)--my point is that it just ainBrian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-21283506023717167352013-12-08T12:16:50.479-05:002013-12-08T12:16:50.479-05:00Great comments Dan! It is possible that you might ...Great comments Dan! It is possible that you might see his argument in a slightly different light if you had a chance to read his explanatory introduction or the other chapters, but yes, he may be pressing his argument too far. I need to let the rest of the gang know that I created this new post and that you have commented. Thanks for taking the time to read it.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8801438723165620856.post-7447402224743606782013-12-05T19:50:58.215-05:002013-12-05T19:50:58.215-05:00Thanks, Joseph, for posting this. Here are some t...Thanks, Joseph, for posting this. Here are some thoughts.<br /><br />I agree with many of his main points, but feel that he sometimes takes his arguments too far and overgeneralizes in his judgments on American Christians.<br /><br />We are not a Christian nation. In fact, no nation can be called Christian. Christians are citizens of a heavenly kingdom, and the church is to represent that Dan and Patti Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14536270277796829582noreply@blogger.com